tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15846426.post114983900415404587..comments2023-10-10T05:08:34.827-05:00Comments on A Crockhead Abroad: Ask Aunt Tillie: Some Googlers Want To Know About The AmishCrockheadhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08410758631825372736noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15846426.post-1150260422611626092006-06-13T23:47:00.000-05:002006-06-13T23:47:00.000-05:00Amishlaw, as I understand it, you made the claim, ...Amishlaw, as I understand it, you made the claim, "Although many Catholics opposed the invasion of Iraq, <B>many more,</B> including bishops, supported it." To support this opinion--which is as wildly speculative as your Aunt's opinion that all Catholics consider Amish hell-bent for not wanting to fight for their country-- you linked to a piece of some sort by Mairead Corrigan Maguire in which she quotes Pope Benedict XVI from a statement [unreferenced] he made while he was Cardinal. The quote however goes more to demonstrate his position of non-violence and hints at the desire to revisit the Just War theory in order to jettison it. Nothing in his statement suggests he or a majority of Catholics are proponents of war with Iraq--yet this was your position and the evidence you pointed me to. <BR/><BR/>Furthermore, Maguire offers a cynical interpretation of what the Pope didn't say. It's unclear in this piece how or if he replied. She implies he had not responded to her challenge--or that his reply (of which we do not know the content) is phony--after all, the Church has pillaged and destroyed since the days of Constantine...But by that logic, even if the Church dropped the Just War theory the minute she made the demand, it wouldn't be good enough. As I said, his words and the official Church position go more to serve the opposite. The fact is, the Church took a very vocal anti-war stance and went further to say the US war with Iraq did not qualify as "just" according to Just War theory. That some Catholics may not have heeded that directive is also not evidence that a majority supported invasion. <BR/><BR/>I digressed somewhat with the child/loved-one analogy because I'm not convinced there is <I>never</I> a justification for "violence." And if it is an inevitability, then the Just War standard may not be such a terrible thing as it can serve to keep us out of conflict as well as give us a standard for using force if necessary; it does not, by the way, mandate <I>everyone</I> fight. (The Amish can breath easy). <BR/><BR/>I went on to suggest that religious leaders who actually profess violence in word and deed (such as many Mullahs and Sheiks) in the name of God are far more deserving of lectures on non-violence than those who profess peace such as the Pope.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps you want to believe the big bad Vatican is winking at Bush while it says No to war, but there is no evidence to support such a cynical claim. Let's also not forget that just as many Catholics burned at the same stakes as your Amish predecessors, probably more, and as many remain committed to peace and to their faith today. <BR/><BR/>Sorry I can't put a humorous spin on it for your friend Lauren... A lot of humor is just cynicism in disguise intended to trivialize and dehumanize. If you don't want anonymous people (or "trolls" as your pious friend so smugly referred to me as--I wonder how that dehumanizing is working for her), then don't have a public blog, or close it to only people who don't take issue with your public comments.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15846426.post-1150251877292925512006-06-13T21:24:00.000-05:002006-06-13T21:24:00.000-05:00Dear Aunt Tillie,Do you really believe a respectab...Dear Aunt Tillie,<BR/><BR/>Do you really believe a respectable Amish woman like yourself should be answering the tedious questions of anonymous, humorless, blog trolls?<BR/><BR/>Especially when there are a bunch of chickens waiting for a good cleaning.Lauren D. McKinneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09492156665800981450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15846426.post-1150241778437887152006-06-13T18:36:00.000-05:002006-06-13T18:36:00.000-05:00Anonymous, I think we're getting a little sidetrac...Anonymous, I think we're getting a little sidetracked here. In your first post, you accused Aunt Tillie of irresponsibly spreading an anti-Catholic bias by stating that the Pope and Jerry Falwell say all Christians should fight for their country. In your second post, you argue that the Catholics are better than the Muslims regarding fighting and that I shouldn't write violence off completely. Whether I should write violence off completely or would fight for my abused child is a completely different issue from the one for which you were taking Aunt Tillie to task. My purpose in pointing out the item about the Nobel Laureate's attempt at getting Pope Benedict to renounce the Just War Theory is to show that Aunt Tillie was not so misinformed in her description of the Pope's attitude towards war. The Just War Theory is still official Catholic teaching. I am no expert, but if I understand Catholic teaching correctly, all good Christians should fight for their country in a Just War. I don't venture an opinion, nor did Aunt Tillie, about whether that teaching is good or bad. She was responding to a question about whether Amish are considered Christian, and explaining why in the eyes of both Catholics and Protestants, at times the Amish have been considered heretics, not Christians.Crockheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08410758631825372736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15846426.post-1150231470122821742006-06-13T15:44:00.000-05:002006-06-13T15:44:00.000-05:00Thanks for the link. This was interesting... Four ...Thanks for the link. This was interesting... <I>Four years ago Pope Benedict, then Cardinal Ratzinger, made a statement saying the time is coming when we will have to get rid of the just war theory</I> According to the blurb you pointed me to, the Pope has not yet responded to her demand. Therefore to glean from this any support for war is false. In fact, based on his actual statement he sounds to be even against defensive war. I doubt he would have made the earlier statement if he wasn't committed to non-violence.<BR/><BR/>She also wonders, <I> "why if the Catholic Church, speaks so much about unconditional love do so many Christians facilitate and participate in violence, armed struggles and war?" </I> (The operative term here being <I>Christian</I>, not <I>Catholic</I>. <BR/><BR/>The Catholic Church does not control all Christians; it doesn't even control all Catholics. It tries to set a standard. Too bad Islamic clerics, the "Holy Men" of Islam aren't professing non-violence in Mosques. It seems they might be a more appropriate audience for her lecture.<BR/><BR/>And on another point, I suppose before you write off violence completely, ask yourself what you might do if someone took your child for example, or someone you loved very much and proceeded to torture that person in front of you... would you, given the chance, use violence to stop the abuser? Would you knock him over the head while he wasn't looking? Would you not summon all your strength to overpower him--(the passengers on Flight 93 also come to mind) or would you sit by and trust in some magical thinking to set things right? <BR/><BR/>Something tells me the Just War Theory ought not to be too hastily abandoned.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15846426.post-1150217412105126162006-06-13T11:50:00.000-05:002006-06-13T11:50:00.000-05:00Anonymous, you have to realize that Aunt Tillie is...Anonymous, you have to realize that Aunt Tillie isn't as sophisticated as you and me. Although many Catholics opposed the invasion of Iraq, many more, including bishops, supported it. I refer you to a piece by Mairead Corrigan Maguire, the Irish Nobel prize winner, about her request directly to Pope Benedict to give up the Just War theory. You can find it here: http://www.peacepeople.com/2005/pope.html Also, I think Aunt Tillie's lumping of the Pope and Jerry Falwell was to show the broad spectrum of Christians thinking it their duty to fight for their country; not that the Pople and Jerry Falwell are together theologically on much else. I don't know about Joe Kennedy, but I don't think you could call John Kerry "strongly anti-war." Certainly during the last presidential campaign, he was kind of, at times, in favor of the invasion of Iraq.Crockheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08410758631825372736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15846426.post-1150201218846096282006-06-13T07:20:00.000-05:002006-06-13T07:20:00.000-05:00I would hate to think I'm going to have to suffer ...<I>I would hate to think I'm going to have to suffer without air conditioning in the next world because we refuse to fight for our country like the Pope and Jerry Falwell says all Christians should do. </I><BR/><BR/>I was googling something and came across your site; couldn't let this statement go w/o comment. <BR/><BR/>Where does the Pope "say" we should fight for our country? This is simply false. The Pope and the Church were vehemently against the Iraq war. Furthermore lumping Falwell and the Catholic Church together is about as accurate as lumping the Amish and right-wing Texas Baptists together. Most Catholics are strongly anti-war--John Kerry and Joe Kennedy to name two. It's very irresponsible to spread false information to promote an anti-Catholic bias.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15846426.post-1150170103703208442006-06-12T22:41:00.000-05:002006-06-12T22:41:00.000-05:00Thanks rdl and patry. Patry, when you do your boo...Thanks rdl and patry. <BR/>Patry, when you do your book tour next spring, you should make a point of coming to Central Illinois. I'll set up some readings for you; you can meet my reading group and have coffee with Aunt Tillie.Crockheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08410758631825372736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15846426.post-1150047504304385682006-06-11T12:38:00.000-05:002006-06-11T12:38:00.000-05:00I have such an "idealized" vision of the Amish. Au...I have such an "idealized" vision of the Amish. Aunt Tillie knocks that vision down with a real face and a very real personality. Sounds like someone I would like to meet.Patry Francishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10961915797919017179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15846426.post-1149996607170751302006-06-10T22:30:00.000-05:002006-06-10T22:30:00.000-05:00I'm liking your aunt tillie more and more.I'm liking your aunt tillie more and more.rdlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04062856086277201874noreply@blogger.com